Ein wissenschaftlicher Blick auf das "Agile Mindset"

00:00:14: Johannes Schartau: Welcome to Episode 6 of Transform Together, the holistic podcast meetup. I'm Johannes Schatow, and today I'm talking to Karen Eilas and Christian Verweis.

00:00:24: Johannes Schartau: Karin is a professor for business psychology with a PhD in information systems. She works at the BSP Business and Law School Hamburg. She researches agile transformation and is part of the science team of Colominity in the Lucid Institute for Organizational Science.

00:00:40: Johannes Schartau: Christiane is an organizational psychologist, co-founder of The Liberators, Columinity, and the Lucid Institute for Organizational Science.

00:00:48: Johannes Schartau: He's also the co-author

00:00:51: Johannes Schartau: of an incredible book that everyone should read, that's The Zombie Scrum Survivor Guide. So, I don't know, like, I hear this all the time, people say it's the best book that has ever been written, and, you know, I can't really tell if that is true or not, because, you know.

00:01:08: Johannes Schartau: I'm not involved in any way, but that's what a lot of people say, and I think they might be right, so you should check out that book. It's really good. Karen and Christian, it's very nice to have you on the podcast.

00:01:19: Christiaan Verwijs: It's a pleasure to be here, Johannes.

00:01:22: karen.eilers: Good to be here, hi.

00:01:24: Johannes Schartau: Okay, so after we already had a bit of interaction, let me ask a couple of questions. And the first one is that, I think especially from the complexity theory people and systems theory people, I hear a lot of talk about mindset being this kind of wishy-washy term.

00:01:42: Johannes Schartau: You know, it's imprecise, unscientific, it's often, like, people say it's ignorant of context, and I would be super interested to hear what your response is to that.

00:01:54: karen.eilers: Well, I can totally feel the situation that you have, the feeling, our mindset is…

00:02:00: karen.eilers: It's something that you don't see, and you don't know what people are thinking about, and it's so soft, and… but actually, mindset is something… it's part of our personality that is always there, so we can try to neglect that it's there, but it will still influence our behaviors. So, we do have

00:02:20: karen.eilers: a situation where we are working on, and the way we are thinking about our work, about specific behaviors, about the way of our… we deal with our values, for example. These are all aspects of our personality and, of our person.

00:02:38: karen.eilers: And this is always interacting with our situation. So…

00:02:43: karen.eilers: We know that the situation and the person interacting with each other, and that is the… you can observe that, for example, that the same person can, in one part of the company, or in one team, can be very agile in his or her behavior, and in another situation.

00:03:03: karen.eilers: He or she isn't.

00:03:05: karen.eilers: So, that seems like…

00:03:08: karen.eilers: It's the same person, but in a different situation, and that leads to different behaviors. And that is something we need to have a look at it.

00:03:17: karen.eilers: So mindset is something that we can…

00:03:22: karen.eilers: can make measurable in psychology. It's something that we have a lot of research going on, and especially in the Agile Mindset, Christiane and I went deeper and deeper

00:03:36: karen.eilers: To help teams, make this Agile minds a little bit more tangible, and to work on it with the teams together, so that they have a self-determined way

00:03:48: karen.eilers: to improve their agile mindset.

00:03:54: Christiaan Verwijs: Yeah, maybe before moving into discussion of what the Agile Mindset is, because that, I think, is what most people are here for today, and why people are listening to the podcast, I think it's useful to draw out one point, which is this notion that

00:04:08: Christiaan Verwijs: attitudes, beliefs, and basically the things that live in our head are squishy and subjective and hard to measure. There's a whole field of science devoted to measuring these things, which is psychology, and there are good ways to measure all these things.

00:04:22: Christiaan Verwijs: It's just… it just takes work, and we'll talk more about what kind of work that involves in this podcast, but there's sometimes the belief that the only things you can reliably measure in an organization are hard, objective things. Now, I personally don't believe there are any hard, objective things you can measure, because

00:04:39: Christiaan Verwijs: Everything you measure is ultimately based on decisions, so it's always subjective to some extent, but maybe things like cycle time, work in progress, flow metrics, those are definitely useful to measure, but they're not the only things to measure, and your organization, whether you like it or not, consists of people.

00:04:55: Christiaan Verwijs: And people do things, and those things are shaped by their attitudes and beliefs, whether you like it or not.

00:05:00: Christiaan Verwijs: So it's important for us, and for managers, and for people that are interested in behavior and organizations to understand the attitudes and beliefs of people in those organizations. And again, not a squishy thing. It's maybe harder to measure than flow metrics, for example, but it's very important nonetheless.

00:05:21: Johannes Schartau: I find that super interesting, and one of the reasons why you're actually on this podcast is because, you measure this, or you study it, actually. And on LinkedIn, I posted this short story about me having this heated debate with a round of Agile coaches, and one of my…

00:05:37: Johannes Schartau: accusations, essentially, was, one of the main questions was, how do you define the agile mindset that you are talking about? And so, one of the key questions, and you already mentioned this, I guess, is, so when we talk about mindset, what makes the mindset agile as opposed to not agile?

00:05:57: karen.eilers: That is a good question. We did the research in complex environment, areas, so… and we asked the people, what, is Agile Mindset for you? And we asked them in different ways, and we found out… found out that

00:06:15: karen.eilers: the agile mindset consists in four dimensions, so in four areas, we would say. And the first thing is that the Agile mindset consists out of customer co-creation, so it's a positive attitude towards

00:06:30: karen.eilers: Having the value for our customers in mind, and let the customers participate in our development process, even on early steps, so here we have these iterative and incremental working inside.

00:06:43: karen.eilers: And to learn that working with the customer creates higher value than only doing the things that I love to work, or that I am very good in building.

00:06:57: karen.eilers: Then the second dimension is a positive attitude towards learning spirit, and it means when we have here a high extent that people

00:07:06: karen.eilers: love to look for new learning opportunities. They like to deal with situations where we don't know the master plan up front, so…

00:07:19: karen.eilers: Getting into a new situation, and realize what is going on here, and learning in loops how to deal with the situation, and getting new insights out of that.

00:07:30: karen.eilers: The third one is a positive attitude toward collaborative exchange. So people with a high extension in this dimension

00:07:38: karen.eilers: They like to show transparently what they are working on at the moment, not only talking about all the things.

00:07:45: karen.eilers: That works so nicely and so well, as well about talking about the things that are stumbling at the moment. So, this enables people to collaborate with you more authentic and even more effective, because they… you are not talking about all the things that

00:08:03: karen.eilers: going right, you are talking about the things that are stumbling at the moment, and so the people can really help you to solve these issues.

00:08:12: karen.eilers: And finally, we have the fourth dimension. It's a positive attitude towards empowered self-guidance. And that means that people with a high extent in this dimension,

00:08:24: karen.eilers: they take the responsibility for their own work, but not only for their own work results, for their processes, and for themselves as well. So they like to use their freedom they already have, and to decide for themselves, how can I achieve that goal? And when they realize, okay, the way I do

00:08:44: karen.eilers: at the moment is not working so well, then don't wait!

00:08:48: karen.eilers: to, that somebody else tells you, oh, maybe you should try something else. No, people with a high extent in this dimension, they realize quickly, okay, this doesn't work, I try something else.

00:09:06: Christiaan Verwijs: Yeah, what is maybe also good to know for people listening to this and being here in the meetup is that the four dimensions that Karen just mentioned.

00:09:14: Christiaan Verwijs: They're not just based on a nice idea, right? This is… because sometimes in our profession, people create models with quadrants, and they look very nice, but they're not really based on data and evidence.

00:09:28: Christiaan Verwijs: what Karen just described, the four dimensions of the Agile Mindset, are based on empirical evidence. So, Karen did a lot of interviews with people and started classifying those beliefs into

00:09:39: Christiaan Verwijs: a theory of those four dimensions, and then actually went out with surveys to test if those factors actually exist in the data. And they do. And that's, I think, really important to emphasize, that this is an empirically grounded, data-grounded set of dimensions. It's not just a nice idea on paper.

00:10:00: Johannes Schartau: That sounds so great. So, I'm fully in. I bought this. I hope you know what my next question is going to be.

00:10:08: Christiaan Verwijs: Not yet.

00:10:09: Johannes Schartau: How do I get everyone else to adopt this mindset? So how do I…

00:10:14: Christiaan Verwijs: How do I po-.

00:10:15: Johannes Schartau: How do I push this into people so that they finally get it? Because for the past 15 years.

00:10:21: Johannes Schartau: I've just been trying to, I don't know, hammer away at people's minds, and it doesn't change, and some people are so stubborn, so give me the fix, and help me find the thing that just switches this on in other people.

00:10:35: karen.eilers: Oh, wait, Johannes, here's the solution, I just grab into my back and give it to you here, that's the one solution, try this out, just 3 steps, and now everything's fixed.

00:10:45: karen.eilers: Well, yeah, that is not that easy. You're totally right, and that is a situation where a lot of people stumble. And I think one thing you should have in mind is that you cannot change the mind of other people.

00:11:00: karen.eilers: You can only create good situations where the people make good experiences, so that they change their mind on their own.

00:11:10: karen.eilers: So, we are not trying to manipulate people by… well, Johannes, I think you don't have the right agile mindset. Well, I have here your training program, and when you're done with that, everything will be better.

00:11:24: karen.eilers: Then maybe, Johannes, you are not very motivated in working with me. But we can create a good surrounding so that people can do good experiences with that.

00:11:35: karen.eilers: And, for example, we have here as well, in the columninity research model, for example, three areas. And the first one is creating knowledge and pulses. For example, here is…

00:11:48: karen.eilers: Do I have opportunities to get new insights out of my context, but maybe as well other contexts? For example, being here in this, in this podcast and talking, about new information.

00:12:03: karen.eilers: And, talking to other people, getting new insights, what is going on at the moment, or maybe even talking, doing things from a totally different area.

00:12:14: karen.eilers: Letting my mind be open for new informations.

00:12:17: karen.eilers: But as well, for example, psychological safety is a very good determination, so it really helps to build a surrounding where agile mindset can grow.

00:12:29: karen.eilers: Then the second part is the work design. So, for example, we do research about how is the cross-functionality of a team influencing the Agile mindset. But as well, do the teams know

00:12:45: karen.eilers: what are… what is the value we are focusing on? Do we have shared goals? Do we have the possibility to self-manage ourselves in a team?

00:12:54: karen.eilers: And the third part, and that is actually something that I totally underestimated when we started researching, I always thought that people who are having a high extent of the agile mindset don't need that great leadership. They just take what they need to lead themselves.

00:13:11: karen.eilers: But actually, leadership is really an important determination, because they have so much power to create good conditions for that. And here, for example, we know already that for agile transformation, management support is something… a really important success factor.

00:13:29: karen.eilers: And, for agile mindset development as well. So, for example, that the leader is, showing, support for continuous improvement of the team, or for the responsiveness, or they help so that

00:13:43: karen.eilers: stakeholders and customers are collaborating with the developers, for example. And there are some examples that we're already doing research and already know how leadership creates a good environment for agile mindset development.

00:14:00: karen.eilers: And based on that, being more effective in their team collaboration.

00:14:07: Christiaan Verwijs: Yeah, and it may be good also to point out that one of the participants of the meetup, Dennis, actually made a very good point in the introduction that we did, where he said, like, it might… it's not just attitudes and beliefs that shape effectiveness, but obviously also the structure of the organization, and the structure has to fit.

00:14:23: Christiaan Verwijs: And I think that this model also shows that, yes, of course, structure is important, because you have to create

00:14:29: Christiaan Verwijs: the environment in which people can develop an agile mindset. I mean, a very simple story from my own experience, the team I was in for a long time.

00:14:37: Christiaan Verwijs: And it wasn't just… it wasn't working so well in that particular team, and I didn't really know what to do. I was a developer and scrum master at the time, and at some point, we hired a new member of the team, and he was… he came from another organization with a very good working culture.

00:14:54: Christiaan Verwijs: And he brought in so many fresh new ideas, and such a yes-can-do attitude to every problem that we faced.

00:15:02: Christiaan Verwijs: that it sort of changed the whole dynamic in this particular team. It made everyone more positive, and every problem that we got, he was just like, oh, we'll solve it, we'll figure it out. So that's just one example of a structural change that really helped that team develop an agile mindset over time. Became a very effective team afterward, but…

00:15:19: Christiaan Verwijs: It wasn't at the time when this person joined.

00:15:23: Johannes Schartau: you didn't only prove that the Agile mindset exists, and you're not only able to show what it is specifically, but you also found an effect on team effectiveness, right? So it's… because often, in the past, I've heard people say, you know, it's nice to have an Agile environment or something like this, but it's… it's not really important, or it's, again, kind of this squishy…

00:15:44: Johannes Schartau: Wishy-washy term.

00:15:46: Johannes Schartau: That way, you know, people feel good or something like this, but you… you have evidence that this might be beneficial. If I'm an organizational leader, and I want my teams to be effective, there is a correlation here, is that correct?

00:15:58: Christiaan Verwijs: Yes, yeah, there is evidence, and that's what I love about science, is that you can… you can collect data, analyze it, and then show that there is an effect. And of course, there are always caveats and limitations, but…

00:16:10: Christiaan Verwijs: And good to mention also the analysis we've already done so far, that Karen and I have done, are based on a Phase 1 validation, so it's a small validation stage where we use data from 133 participants, which is about 55 teams.

00:16:26: Christiaan Verwijs: to at least test the model in its first stage, and then use those insights to improve the model, and test it again, maybe a couple months down the road, and then one more time. But one of the things that we found is that,

00:16:40: Christiaan Verwijs: like you say, there is an effect of agile mindset on team effectiveness. I have to do this from the top of my head, so Karen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we…

00:16:48: Christiaan Verwijs: Seeing the data that, team effectiveness is explained by about 60% by Agile Mindset. So that means that teams that are more effective, do have a higher… have a more agile mindset.

00:17:01: Christiaan Verwijs: And that means, in this case, that they are more performant, they have higher team morale, and their stakeholders are more satisfied. And it's a significant effect, it's a strong effect, so that's really nice. And yeah, did I get the number correct, Karen? Do you remember what it was?

00:17:18: karen.eilers: Actually, I just remembered it was very high, so with the You're way more.

00:17:23: Christiaan Verwijs: It's very high, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:24: karen.eilers: But you're right, it was a strong, significant effect, yeah.

00:17:32: Johannes Schartau: Khan, you already mentioned that the leadership part really surprised you, or that you didn't expect this to be so important. Were there any other things in your research that you didn't expect, or that once you saw them, you kind of thought, hmm.

00:17:50: Johannes Schartau: I didn't, you know, I didn't expect that. That is super interesting.

00:17:53: karen.eilers: That is so important. Yes. For example, and sometimes for, for,

00:18:03: karen.eilers: For people who are not part of the research area, it is very clear that the… when things are working on the individual level.

00:18:14: karen.eilers: then they should work on the team level, too, because they are just the individuals in a group. But actually, we know that sometimes,

00:18:24: karen.eilers: only having the averages of people in a team, is not the same like measuring the agile mindset of the individuals.

00:18:35: karen.eilers: And that was really amazing to see how well it fits in our research, because in the beginning, we were not that quite sure, is there really something like the agile mindset of a team? Does that exist?

00:18:50: karen.eilers: We first started doing research on the individual level, because mindset is something that is happening in minds, and teams don't have minds, but individuals do have minds. And that was actually really great, to realize that

00:19:05: karen.eilers: Teams can create, a situation here, that

00:19:11: karen.eilers: has something like… it's like the shared beliefs, how we think what is valuable in our interaction and our collaboration, the way we work together. And that was great. And we were not that quite sure that it really exists in that way.

00:19:30: Christiaan Verwijs: Yeah, and but that's the fun part, also, of scientific research, is that you start out with a hypothesis, you test it with data, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. And maybe just to mention two other things that we found, and then I think it's a good idea to do some question generation from the audience, but we'll do that in a moment.

00:19:48: Christiaan Verwijs: One of the other findings we had was that we can see in the data that environmental factors do indeed shape Agile mindset. So we can see there is a statistically significant effect from cross-functional teams.

00:19:59: Christiaan Verwijs: on agile mindset, also value focus. If teams are focused on value, then they are more likely to develop an Agile mindset. And psychological safety. Being able to talk openly without being afraid that people will diminish you, or as a person, push you out of a team.

00:20:18: Christiaan Verwijs: That's also important, so we can see in the data that those effects are there. Not all the factors that we theorized in the model already show an effect, like Karen mentioned, learning opportunities, for example.

00:20:29: Christiaan Verwijs: We can't see a significant effect of this yet, but with a sample of 133 participants, it's also quite small to do good statistical analyses on this, so…

00:20:38: Christiaan Verwijs: when we have more data, we'll probably see more, and then we can also control for other variables that are not yet part of these analyses.

00:20:46: Christiaan Verwijs: And finally, management. We can clearly see that there is a strong effect of management support on the formation of an agile mindset. And what that looks like in practice, that's something we have to investigate in more detail, but we can clearly see that if management helps teams be more effective, then they are more likely to develop an agile mindset.

00:21:06: karen.eilers: Christiane, was there something that surprised you in our data?

00:21:11: Christiaan Verwijs: Well, I think what you… I was surprised how much of variance in team effectiveness we can explain from the Agile mindset at the team level. I was expecting that to be a little bit lower, because team mindsets…

00:21:23: Christiaan Verwijs: Shared mindsets are always a bit vague and abstract, even in psychological research, but it actually seems to contribute a lot to,

00:21:33: Christiaan Verwijs: Team Effectiveness, which, in a way, is also not surprising, but that was the most interesting finding for me so far.

00:21:39: karen.eilers: Yeah, and you're right. Well, normally it's totally clear for us, but team effectiveness is influenced by so many things.

00:21:47: Christiaan Verwijs: Hmm.

00:21:48: karen.eilers: It's never a monocusal, like, how we say. It's shaped by so many factors, and that the agile mindset shapes or influences the team effectiveness in such a strong way. Yeah, that was right, yeah.

00:22:06: karen.eilers: Surprising.

00:22:08: Johannes Schartau: Now, what's next for you? What are you going to focus on in the near future? I think you want to get more people into the study?

00:22:17: Johannes Schartau: what else? If you could just imagine you could design the perfect study environment, unlimited budget, what would you do next?

00:22:30: karen.eilers: Oh, I have some questions that I would love to do research, and we are in a good way to find things out, but if you ask me, like a fairy, what I wish for…

00:22:43: karen.eilers: Then, one part would be that we have really international, samples, where we can really have good benchmarks, and we say norms, for every kind of nationality, for example.

00:22:58: karen.eilers: I would love to know better if

00:23:02: karen.eilers: how many people in a team need to have an Agile mindset? Does really everyone in a team needs an Agile mindset when working in an Agile environment?

00:23:12: karen.eilers: Well, we are not sure yet, and maybe it's very clever to have maybe one, two, or three people in a team that have a low extent of an agile mindset, and that makes them more effective as a team together.

00:23:27: karen.eilers: And that would be two questions that would really interest me, how this comes out in the end. Christiane, what is it about you?

00:23:36: Christiaan Verwijs: Oh, a million things, but if you have unlimited budget… Well, what would be very interesting to me is the correlation with the so-called harder metrics that people often use in organizations, like cycle time.

00:23:49: Christiaan Verwijs: other kinds of flow metrics, essentially, quality metrics, because I would expect a very strong positive effect of agile mindset on that, but it's good to learn more. I mean, ultimately what Karen and I are doing, the kind of research we're doing, is about human factors, right? So it's about

00:24:05: Christiaan Verwijs: things that are very much about what we believe and what shapes our behavior, and I think hard metrics help you tell the story of what happened.

00:24:14: Christiaan Verwijs: in an organization, like, how many bugs are there, how quickly can we produce, but human factors help you explain why those things happen. And I think if we can investigate that sort of data together.

00:24:27: Christiaan Verwijs: That will get a lot of very interesting insights from that. And also maybe help make the case why human factors are so important.

00:24:35: Johannes Schartau: Very nice. So I see people are starting to ask questions in the chat, and I think this is the perfect moment.

00:24:49: karen.eilers: Well, one thing is, how do you deal with, with, failures, or how do you deal with, with,

00:25:02: karen.eilers: If something went wrong, how do you ask the questions to reflect about, okay, what is going on at the moment? And…

00:25:13: karen.eilers: How do we want to move on, for example, and not looking for the finger-pointing. Don't tell people that they do not have the right agile mindset. That is not helpful.

00:25:25: karen.eilers: I think more about, okay, what is a good start to start with myself developing an agile mindset, being a good role model in agile mindset behavior development?

00:25:39: karen.eilers: And by doing so, you create an environment where your people can observe you. And it's good in several ways. First.

00:25:50: karen.eilers: you realize, where are stumbling blocks in agile mindset development in your organization, not only for you, but as well for your people.

00:25:59: karen.eilers: Second, you work on your agile mindset, it means you improve for yourself.

00:26:05: karen.eilers: And third, you show your employees that you really mean it. You're really just telling, oh, well, now everyone needs an agile mindset, you really work on it, and showing your people that it's really valuable for you.

00:26:21: karen.eilers: and that you are learning, and you are developing in your Agile mindset, and you invest in your Agile mindset development. Maybe start by defining a little experience for yourself. Is there maybe one

00:26:36: karen.eilers: part in the dimensions where you say, oh, okay, that is a situation where I want to improve.

00:26:43: karen.eilers: Maybe it's a situation where it's hard for you to be open and transparent, or maybe it's a situation where you always try to avoid talking to customers, also.

00:26:56: karen.eilers: then have a try doing that and talking with your people. Make it really explicit. Talking to your people and telling, I want to improve, maybe in the customer co-creation area.

00:27:08: karen.eilers: And to do so, I want to try in our next meeting to talk to, don't know, whoever, former customers.

00:27:17: karen.eilers: And talk about it afterwards. Was it better? Maybe getting some feedback from your people around you? Was it better? What did they observe, for example? So you can be a good role model in agile mindset development.

00:27:36: karen.eilers: point. What do you think, Christian?

00:27:38: Christiaan Verwijs: I think this is a great answer. I think it's a great answer. You gave a lot of examples with this, yeah. I'm curious for one of the other questions.

00:27:46: Johannes Schartau: Yeah, let's take the next one. So, it says, a collection of beliefs and attitudes that shape behavior. Have you investigated the opposite? So, behavior that shapes the mindset.

00:27:56: Christiaan Verwijs: Oh, yes, psychologists have investigated that, of course, and not me personally. I'll start, and Karen, you can chip in, of course.

00:28:06: Christiaan Verwijs: We haven't investigated that specifically for Agile Mindset, maybe Karen has, I don't know, but,

00:28:12: Christiaan Verwijs: Ultimately, there will be an interaction, right? So, our behavior shapes our environment, and the environment shapes our behavior in turn. But I think it's useful to start with beliefs and attitudes, because that's… those are the things we bring to the workplace.

00:28:27: Christiaan Verwijs: And there was another question, which sort of connects to this. Someone asked, can't we just leave the agile mindset part out of the model, and maybe just focus on the structural things? And as a psychologist, I understand where the question's coming from, but it kind of feels like it's saying, let's keep all those annoying people with their

00:28:45: Christiaan Verwijs: personal differences out of the equation and focus just on structure, things we can see and control. But ultimately, people do come to the workplace with their own beliefs and personality and other things.

00:28:59: Christiaan Verwijs: So it is important to also measure that, and that's what we do with Agile Mindset in this particular model. So yeah, it's a really good question. We haven't investigated that specifically, but Karen, maybe you have other thoughts on this.

00:29:13: Christiaan Verwijs: With me on this.

00:29:15: karen.eilers: That is really possible, that behavior as well shapes mindset. We call that it's a reciprocal deteminism in psychology, so really crazy word.

00:29:26: karen.eilers: How situation, person, and behavior interacts with each other, and they can influence each other in every way.

00:29:35: karen.eilers: But most… so…

00:29:38: karen.eilers: a lot of theories uses these other way around, so, like, how attitudes shapes our behavior. But we have situations where our behaviors, and we have something like a self-observing capacity, so we can observe ourselves and realize, okay.

00:29:57: karen.eilers: I eat a lot of, sweets.

00:30:01: karen.eilers: So, it looks like I really love sweets, but you never thought about it, on a really explicit area, in an explicit way.

00:30:12: karen.eilers: And, so you can observe your own behavior, and building your mind out of it, that works.

00:30:21: karen.eilers: But we haven't researched it in the Agile Mindset research at the moment.

00:30:28: Christiaan Verwijs: There's a really good book that I would… that I always recommend to people interested in this that is an academic book. It's written by two professors and social psychologists. It's called The Person and the Situation. If you Google it, you'll find it. It's very well known.

00:30:41: Christiaan Verwijs: But it captures, like, decades of research into behavior and how it's affected… how behavior is shaped by the environment, but also how behavior shapes the environment.

00:30:52: Christiaan Verwijs: And how that's affected by our beliefs and attitudes. It's a very influential book. I would highly recommend to at least look it over once, if you're interested in this.

00:31:03: Johannes Schartau: Alright, sadly we're out of time.

00:31:05: Christiaan Verwijs: Yeah.

00:31:06: Johannes Schartau: So, I hope this session has given you some concrete ideas for your own transformation challenges. At Holisticon, we put into practice what we discuss in Transform Together. We provide companies with holistic support throughout the digital transformation process, from strategy and technology to organizational change.

00:31:22: Johannes Schartau: We make our customers more resilient, establish a future-proof agile culture, create new business models, and inspire people with better services and products.

00:31:30: Johannes Schartau: If you're facing similar challenges or wondering how you can implement the ideas from this session in your organization, please feel free to contact us. You can find all the information you need at holisticon.de. And don't miss our next Transform Together session on December 12th at 9 a.m. CET, so Central European Time.

00:31:48: Johannes Schartau: Why so early? Because Zilken Neuer will join us live from New Zealand.

00:31:53: Johannes Schartau: And it's going to be late where she lives, that's why we have to start early.

00:31:57: Johannes Schartau: I'll talk to her about culture, So…

00:32:01: Johannes Schartau: the, like, national cultures, and maybe also some major cultures, and I think it's gonna be really interesting, so see you then.