Interkulturelle Kompetenz als Wettbewerbsvorteil

00:00:02: Speaker: Transform together – das Podcast -Meetup von und mit Johannes

00:00:06: Speaker: Schartau und Holisticon.

00:00:10: Speaker: Welcome to episode seven of transform Ttgether, the

00:00:13: Speaker: Holisticon podcast meetup.

00:00:15: Speaker: I'm Johannes Schartau and today I'm talking to Silke Noll.

00:00:19: Speaker: Silke is a globally recognized

00:00:20: Speaker: certified seminar facilitator,

00:00:22: Speaker: trainer, and consultant

00:00:24: Speaker: specializing in intercultural

00:00:26: Speaker: competencies, communication and

00:00:28: Speaker: team building with multiple

00:00:30: Speaker: published books on intercultural

00:00:32: Speaker: communication.

00:00:33: Speaker: She is an authority on the topic.

00:00:35: Speaker: She also holds a diverse range of certifications, including

00:00:38: Speaker: being an accredited Kanban Trainer by Kanban University.

00:00:42: Speaker: It's morning here in Germany,

00:00:44: Speaker: but it's nighttime where Silke

00:00:46: Speaker: is because she lives in New

00:00:48: Speaker: Zealand.

00:00:49: Speaker: Silke thank you for joining us and welcome to the podcast.

00:00:52: Speaker: Thank you very much, Johannes.

00:00:53: Speaker: You can see the sun's going down

00:00:55: Speaker: here right now for the people

00:00:58: Speaker: listening.

00:00:59: Speaker: Zika has this really nice view behind her.

00:01:01: Speaker: And as she just said before we started recording, you can

00:01:04: Speaker: actually see the ocean from I can see it from my from my

00:01:08: Speaker: standing desk here.

00:01:10: Speaker: I can see the ocean in New Zealand.

00:01:12: Speaker: That's really cool.

00:01:12: Speaker: I'm really excited you have Silke.

00:01:14: Speaker: Um, you are an expert on

00:01:17: Speaker: cultural all things culture, uh,

00:01:19: Speaker: as well as really well-versed in

00:01:23: Speaker: things like Kanban, uh, and flow

00:01:27: Speaker: and agile.

00:01:28: Speaker: And I thought we could start by

00:01:30: Speaker: just asking the question, what

00:01:32: Speaker: is culture?

00:01:33: Speaker: And let me just kind of illustrate why I'm asking this,

00:01:36: Speaker: because I often work with organizations, and then they

00:01:39: Speaker: have some kind of culture initiative that's going on.

00:01:43: Speaker: Uh, and I always get the feeling that people have really

00:01:46: Speaker: different understandings of what culture is and what they're

00:01:48: Speaker: trying to achieve there.

00:01:50: Speaker: So, um, is there any kind of

00:01:52: Speaker: definition of what culture is or

00:01:53: Speaker: what is your definition of

00:01:54: Speaker: culture?

00:01:55: Speaker: There are a few definitions that

00:01:57: Speaker: I quite, um, personally like,

00:02:00: Speaker: um, one would be like, it's like

00:02:02: Speaker: a fish in the water, and the

00:02:03: Speaker: fish only recognizes what the

00:02:05: Speaker: culture is once it's not there

00:02:08: Speaker: anymore.

00:02:09: Speaker: Then, um, I like a definition,

00:02:11: Speaker: which is it's the software of

00:02:13: Speaker: the mind.

00:02:14: Speaker: And another one, it's how we do things here.

00:02:17: Speaker: They all tell a story.

00:02:20: Speaker: And I think we all have our very own culture that we bring with

00:02:25: Speaker: us, and that is made out of all the cultures we have experienced

00:02:29: Speaker: in our life.

00:02:32: Speaker: I always talk about our individual backpack.

00:02:34: Speaker: We grew up in a generation in a gender.

00:02:39: Speaker: We worked in different organizational cultures.

00:02:42: Speaker: We grew up in a country culture,

00:02:45: Speaker: and there are different cultures

00:02:47: Speaker: and regions, and maybe even in a

00:02:48: Speaker: city or in the village that we

00:02:50: Speaker: are from.

00:02:50: Speaker: And all of these experiences form who we are as individuals.

00:02:55: Speaker: Um, and this is how we look at the world.

00:02:59: Speaker: And now you start working in an organization and you realize,

00:03:03: Speaker: hmm, this is weird.

00:03:04: Speaker: This isn't what I've known before.

00:03:06: Speaker: Like you've worked in a government organization, and

00:03:09: Speaker: you, you're accepted to start in a startup, things are different.

00:03:13: Speaker: So your own cultural backpack is like, oh, this is this is not

00:03:18: Speaker: part of my portfolio.

00:03:19: Speaker: What's happening here?

00:03:20: Speaker: And that culture will form again your own portfolio.

00:03:24: Speaker: So in intercultural terms we

00:03:26: Speaker: look at culture in relative

00:03:28: Speaker: terms, um, and never in absolute

00:03:30: Speaker: terms.

00:03:31: Speaker: So there is not that culture or

00:03:33: Speaker: that culture like Germany is not

00:03:35: Speaker: like that.

00:03:36: Speaker: And when you have an

00:03:38: Speaker: intercultural training about New

00:03:39: Speaker: Zealand, there is no absolute

00:03:40: Speaker: term about classifying New

00:03:42: Speaker: Zealand.

00:03:43: Speaker: There are some values that are pronounced and you can figure

00:03:48: Speaker: those out also for organizations, because the

00:03:50: Speaker: patterns or the values that we look at have been really well

00:03:54: Speaker: researched by intercultural Culturalists and they are really

00:03:57: Speaker: good, um, as a guidance.

00:03:59: Speaker: But then it really depends on

00:04:00: Speaker: where you are coming from and

00:04:02: Speaker: what you've experienced in your

00:04:03: Speaker: own world.

00:04:04: Speaker: So it could be that you step

00:04:06: Speaker: into a new culture and you find

00:04:08: Speaker: it really similar because, for

00:04:10: Speaker: example, it's a similarly

00:04:12: Speaker: hierarchical culture.

00:04:13: Speaker: Or you might experience or this

00:04:16: Speaker: is weird because I haven't

00:04:18: Speaker: expected that I can actually

00:04:20: Speaker: they talk straight to their

00:04:22: Speaker: boss.

00:04:22: Speaker: This is really awesome.

00:04:23: Speaker: This is really awkward, you know, um, and how do they

00:04:27: Speaker: there's no respect how they how they talk to their boss.

00:04:31: Speaker: This is this isn't what we do.

00:04:32: Speaker: Right.

00:04:33: Speaker: And so I think it's how we do

00:04:35: Speaker: things is quite, quite a good

00:04:37: Speaker: definition.

00:04:38: Speaker: And all the, the other three

00:04:39: Speaker: that I've explained, but for me

00:04:41: Speaker: it goes a lot deeper because it

00:04:43: Speaker: is always relative to where

00:04:45: Speaker: you're coming from and never

00:04:47: Speaker: absolute.

00:04:48: Speaker: So it's difficult to define a culture in absolute terms.

00:04:53: Speaker: That's super interesting.

00:04:54: Speaker: And I always like to ask the

00:04:56: Speaker: guests the questions that I hear

00:04:58: Speaker: that, uh, maybe puzzle me or

00:05:01: Speaker: that I have difficulty

00:05:02: Speaker: answering.

00:05:03: Speaker: So I'm going to pose the question to you.

00:05:06: Speaker: I'm super interested what your what your answer is going to be.

00:05:09: Speaker: And that question is, um, I've

00:05:11: Speaker: heard people say something like,

00:05:13: Speaker: can't we all leave this aside

00:05:16: Speaker: and just rationally focus on the

00:05:18: Speaker: task?

00:05:19: Speaker: So can we just ignore the

00:05:21: Speaker: culture and just be task

00:05:23: Speaker: oriented?

00:05:24: Speaker: And this this culture thing feels kind of wishy washy, uh,

00:05:29: Speaker: intangible in a way.

00:05:31: Speaker: Um, what would you say to that?

00:05:33: Speaker: So can we just leave it aside?

00:05:36: Speaker: Uh, would that be a good thing to do?

00:05:38: Speaker: Or how do we deal with this?

00:05:39: Speaker: The people that say that they

00:05:41: Speaker: are absolutely right, it is

00:05:42: Speaker: absolutely unconscious.

00:05:43: Speaker: It's not something tangible, as you said.

00:05:47: Speaker: And that makes it so tricky.

00:05:49: Speaker: But the outcomes are very tangible.

00:05:54: Speaker: Because you can just lose a contract with your client

00:05:58: Speaker: because of cultural issues.

00:05:59: Speaker: You could be denied for for a

00:06:02: Speaker: job, because of cultural issues,

00:06:04: Speaker: or you could not nail a project

00:06:07: Speaker: because of intercultural

00:06:09: Speaker: projects.

00:06:09: Speaker: So it's actually quite tangible.

00:06:11: Speaker: The thing is that we like to describe cultures as an iceberg,

00:06:15: Speaker: and I guess probably most of those that are listening to

00:06:19: Speaker: this, this podcast know this concept also from other areas.

00:06:24: Speaker: It's quite well known.

00:06:26: Speaker: So for those that don't know, the meaning is the tip of the

00:06:29: Speaker: iceberg is very small compared to the rest, which is underneath

00:06:34: Speaker: the ocean, and it only touches the superficial things that you

00:06:38: Speaker: can see, like food behaviors.

00:06:41: Speaker: Dos and don'ts are things like that.

00:06:45: Speaker: So things that you can see that

00:06:47: Speaker: are obvious in our culture,

00:06:49: Speaker: anything underneath the surface

00:06:51: Speaker: in the ocean are things that we

00:06:54: Speaker: cannot see.

00:06:54: Speaker: And that's things like our beliefs, cultural values, like

00:06:59: Speaker: the values are one of the deepest things that are very

00:07:03: Speaker: unconscious, like religion plays a part here sometimes as well.

00:07:07: Speaker: So it's really deep things that we cannot observe.

00:07:11: Speaker: And they are very subconscious

00:07:13: Speaker: unconscious, actually

00:07:15: Speaker: unconscious.

00:07:16: Speaker: And they determine what happens

00:07:17: Speaker: on top of the surface when there

00:07:20: Speaker: is a clash with cultures that

00:07:22: Speaker: happens underneath.

00:07:23: Speaker: It just happens as a clash.

00:07:24: Speaker: You're like, oh, what the heck is that person doing?

00:07:27: Speaker: It's like, you know, yeah, but it's very emotional.

00:07:31: Speaker: And in that moment, emotions are under the surface.

00:07:34: Speaker: You wouldn't get it up to the surface and wonder, so what

00:07:38: Speaker: caused this behavior?

00:07:39: Speaker: Why did this actually happen?

00:07:41: Speaker: I've noticed just this week that

00:07:43: Speaker: I have a client who's

00:07:45: Speaker: international, and nowadays we

00:07:47: Speaker: work.

00:07:48: Speaker: Lots of us work from home or in

00:07:50: Speaker: some kind of remote setting, and

00:07:52: Speaker: it would be totally normal for

00:07:54: Speaker: me in the morning to talk to

00:07:55: Speaker: someone from the company in

00:07:57: Speaker: Southeast Asia and then, uh, in

00:08:00: Speaker: the afternoon to someone from,

00:08:03: Speaker: from the Americas, and then in

00:08:05: Speaker: between people from all over

00:08:06: Speaker: Europe.

00:08:07: Speaker: Uh, and it's just so accessible.

00:08:10: Speaker: But in such an organizational

00:08:12: Speaker: setting, do you have any

00:08:13: Speaker: examples of what you just talked

00:08:15: Speaker: about these, the culture, the

00:08:17: Speaker: values, the beliefs, how that

00:08:19: Speaker: might cause some kind of

00:08:20: Speaker: conflict or friction in the way

00:08:22: Speaker: we interact in this, uh, in this

00:08:25: Speaker: global setting that we have

00:08:26: Speaker: nowadays.

00:08:27: Speaker: I have a very personal

00:08:29: Speaker: experience from coming to New

00:08:31: Speaker: Zealand, and then I have a very

00:08:33: Speaker: recent one which actually shows

00:08:35: Speaker: how a project can fail because

00:08:38: Speaker: of this.

00:08:39: Speaker: So my personal experience and I

00:08:42: Speaker: talk about this often, I must

00:08:43: Speaker: say, um, it's one of what was

00:08:45: Speaker: one of those key moments, uh,

00:08:48: Speaker: really in intercultural terms, I

00:08:51: Speaker: came into New Zealand and my

00:08:53: Speaker: first employer was and I am a

00:08:55: Speaker: testing consultancy, and I

00:08:58: Speaker: really found it really, really

00:09:01: Speaker: weird that the they were like

00:09:03: Speaker: basically white men behind

00:09:05: Speaker: glass.

00:09:06: Speaker: So it looked like an ivory tower and a glass box, and everybody

00:09:09: Speaker: else on the bench was outside.

00:09:11: Speaker: And that wasn't something I was

00:09:12: Speaker: used to from from Germany, I

00:09:14: Speaker: must say.

00:09:15: Speaker: And then I was like, this is weird.

00:09:16: Speaker: And then I asked my colleagues on the bench, which were mainly

00:09:21: Speaker: from the Philippines, they said, no, this is normal.

00:09:25: Speaker: There's nothing we would observe like this.

00:09:29: Speaker: Yeah.

00:09:29: Speaker: Just how.

00:09:30: Speaker: Yeah, nothing weird about it.

00:09:33: Speaker: And then I had another thought.

00:09:35: Speaker: The thing is that I also, I

00:09:36: Speaker: really didn't expect this in New

00:09:37: Speaker: Zealand because New Zealand is

00:09:39: Speaker: expected to be an egalitarian

00:09:41: Speaker: country.

00:09:41: Speaker: And so after some thoughts, it came to me that it's it was it's

00:09:47: Speaker: actually an English organisation They brought their English

00:09:51: Speaker: culture with the company.

00:09:54: Speaker: Even though I was working in New Zealand and the English culture

00:09:57: Speaker: has a class system, so it's actually quite hierarchical.

00:10:00: Speaker: And this is what I observed,

00:10:02: Speaker: because in Germany we have a

00:10:03: Speaker: very egalitarian culture as

00:10:06: Speaker: well.

00:10:07: Speaker: Like of course everyone would say, now that is listening.

00:10:10: Speaker: Oh, but I'm in an organization,

00:10:12: Speaker: you know, there are hierarchies

00:10:13: Speaker: as well.

00:10:14: Speaker: But the thing in Germany, you

00:10:16: Speaker: can talk straight to your boss

00:10:18: Speaker: and tell him your opinion, and

00:10:19: Speaker: that is how that is really an

00:10:21: Speaker: egalitarian.

00:10:22: Speaker: Right.

00:10:23: Speaker: Um, feature.

00:10:24: Speaker: Right.

00:10:24: Speaker: We just do that.

00:10:26: Speaker: And when I talk to an English boss like level, they're like,

00:10:31: Speaker: who's this woman?

00:10:32: Speaker: You know?

00:10:33: Speaker: How dare she interrupt?

00:10:35: Speaker: Hell yeah.

00:10:36: Speaker: And so that was the difference

00:10:37: Speaker: that I. And it's a subtle,

00:10:39: Speaker: subtle sentiment, you know, and

00:10:41: Speaker: I, I just got it on the surface

00:10:43: Speaker: because of my, I guess, my

00:10:45: Speaker: intercultural background.

00:10:47: Speaker: And I was like, this must be something cultural.

00:10:49: Speaker: And so I dig into it and.

00:10:51: Speaker: Yeah.

00:10:52: Speaker: And yeah, so that was super interesting for me as someone

00:10:57: Speaker: new to New Zealand.

00:10:58: Speaker: There was an organization I

00:10:59: Speaker: worked in which was actually not

00:11:01: Speaker: representing the the local

00:11:03: Speaker: culture.

00:11:04: Speaker: And the other example is from a um, a training I recently ran.

00:11:08: Speaker: It was culture specific about Australia.

00:11:10: Speaker: The situation could as well be New Zealand.

00:11:13: Speaker: Um, the situation really is very

00:11:15: Speaker: similar, where some, let's say

00:11:18: Speaker: Northern European with a rather

00:11:22: Speaker: linear mind, not linear mindset,

00:11:24: Speaker: linear, um, perception of time

00:11:27: Speaker: where, you know, you've got

00:11:29: Speaker: project timelines, um, and you

00:11:31: Speaker: do one thing after the other and

00:11:33: Speaker: you have a conversation

00:11:35: Speaker: structure, which is question

00:11:37: Speaker: answer.

00:11:37: Speaker: At the very beginning of the training they voiced clearly.

00:11:42: Speaker: So we've got this really detailed project plan.

00:11:45: Speaker: But the Australians, they don't seem to like to commit to it.

00:11:50: Speaker: How can we get the Aussies to commit to this project plan?

00:11:53: Speaker: And of course, as a trainer, you

00:11:55: Speaker: cannot give the answer at the

00:11:57: Speaker: beginning.

00:11:57: Speaker: You say cool, keep this question until the end and maybe some

00:12:03: Speaker: things pop up in between.

00:12:05: Speaker: There's a likelihood of us gaining some insights that will

00:12:09: Speaker: lead you to be able to answer your own question.

00:12:13: Speaker: And the beauty was that the other, like some some other

00:12:16: Speaker: participants, were actually from different countries in Asia who

00:12:20: Speaker: have a completely different perception of time, much more

00:12:23: Speaker: flexible, more cyclical.

00:12:24: Speaker: Actually, it would be more closer actually to the Kanban

00:12:28: Speaker: concept of right, like start at the last responsible moment

00:12:33: Speaker: rather than planning things out.

00:12:35: Speaker: And at the end, it was really cool to see that they themselves

00:12:40: Speaker: figured out, hey, maybe because that was one organization they

00:12:46: Speaker: had actually gained a project in Australia like a real project.

00:12:50: Speaker: And they were like, well, maybe

00:12:52: Speaker: we should have like we should

00:12:54: Speaker: get together and figure out this

00:12:56: Speaker: plan that you have and we'll

00:12:58: Speaker: figure out together how we can

00:12:59: Speaker: make this digestible for the

00:13:01: Speaker: Aussies.

00:13:01: Speaker: Aussies.

00:13:02: Speaker: Yeah.

00:13:03: Speaker: So and that was a perfect outcome.

00:13:06: Speaker: How you can take like strengths of different cultures and

00:13:10: Speaker: improve the outcome.

00:13:12: Speaker: So it's not just a clash.

00:13:13: Speaker: It can be this mutually

00:13:15: Speaker: beneficial or where you have

00:13:17: Speaker: some kind of synergy of

00:13:18: Speaker: different cultures that enhance

00:13:20: Speaker: each other and make the the

00:13:22: Speaker: result much better if the

00:13:23: Speaker: consciousness is there, and that

00:13:25: Speaker: is when it is really worthwhile

00:13:28: Speaker: in investing into an

00:13:30: Speaker: intercultural training.

00:13:31: Speaker: So either culture specific, as in this case, um, specific to a

00:13:35: Speaker: different country, or there are also cultural awareness

00:13:40: Speaker: trainings and they are pretty cool when you have, for example,

00:13:44: Speaker: teams with a lot of cultures in it as a type of team building or

00:13:48: Speaker: so, for example, or even when you have mergers of two

00:13:52: Speaker: organizations with different cultures, which is pretty.

00:13:55: Speaker: I don't think there has ever

00:13:57: Speaker: been a merger between two

00:13:59: Speaker: organizational cultures that are

00:14:01: Speaker: similar.

00:14:01: Speaker: So yeah.

00:14:03: Speaker: Yeah, I think you're right.

00:14:05: Speaker: That's not what you usually hear.

00:14:06: Speaker: Right?

00:14:06: Speaker: So we we acquired this company

00:14:08: Speaker: and it's working out

00:14:09: Speaker: beautifully.

00:14:10: Speaker: It's no issues.

00:14:12: Speaker: We love these guys.

00:14:12: Speaker: Yeah.

00:14:13: Speaker: It's just like it's just what we needed.

00:14:17: Speaker: Right.

00:14:18: Speaker: I have another question.

00:14:18: Speaker: So, um, I had to work in Russia for a while.

00:14:23: Speaker: That was that was a maybe twelve

00:14:26: Speaker: years ago or something like

00:14:27: Speaker: that.

00:14:28: Speaker: Uh, even a bit more.

00:14:30: Speaker: So I had some intercultural training, and what they told me

00:14:33: Speaker: was that, um, people in Russia want to look very determined,

00:14:38: Speaker: um, and kind of stern and want to show that I got this, uh, And

00:14:44: Speaker: they were kind of showing pictures of politicians, and the

00:14:48: Speaker: German or European ones were all smiling, looking friendly.

00:14:51: Speaker: And then the Russian ones looked

00:14:53: Speaker: kind of, you know, serious and,

00:14:55: Speaker: uh, about to engage in this

00:14:58: Speaker: task.

00:14:59: Speaker: And I'm going to completely dominate this.

00:15:02: Speaker: Uh, I actually went there and talked to people and I just

00:15:06: Speaker: because I met some Russians and I asked them, I tend to smile

00:15:09: Speaker: quite a bit.

00:15:10: Speaker: Uh, how does that make you feel?

00:15:12: Speaker: And they told me, well, we know you're from the West, but.

00:15:15: Speaker: So it's okay.

00:15:16: Speaker: Or we know how to kind of interpret this.

00:15:19: Speaker: But if you were Russian, then we would probably think that you

00:15:23: Speaker: are disabled or something like this or so.

00:15:26: Speaker: Uh, and the thing was that for me, it was so difficult to

00:15:29: Speaker: switch it off or just at the same time, I stay a couple of

00:15:33: Speaker: weeks and I noticed that just walking around, it made me

00:15:36: Speaker: depressed because people just looked so closed off and, uh,

00:15:42: Speaker: Not friendly, not not hostile.

00:15:44: Speaker: But on the way there.

00:15:46: Speaker: How do you deal when you deal with a situation like this?

00:15:50: Speaker: When you when you're being exposed to a culture, you feel

00:15:53: Speaker: like there's no fit.

00:15:54: Speaker: Um, do you have any tips for that?

00:15:56: Speaker: Like, should I just do my best to adapt?

00:15:59: Speaker: Or is there a way that I maybe can bring my own culture to this

00:16:03: Speaker: that is digestible for the people in the other culture?

00:16:07: Speaker: Any kind of advice that you would give in this situation?

00:16:10: Speaker: Um, it's difficult because you had to work there, right?

00:16:13: Speaker: So it worked, right?

00:16:15: Speaker: Thrown you there?

00:16:16: Speaker: The good thing is that you had a

00:16:17: Speaker: training so you knew what you

00:16:19: Speaker: were expecting.

00:16:20: Speaker: Um, and you were able to talk to them.

00:16:22: Speaker: Imagine someone who didn't have this right.

00:16:25: Speaker: Caught completely unaware.

00:16:27: Speaker: Yeah.

00:16:27: Speaker: So, yeah, that would have been a more difficult situation still.

00:16:31: Speaker: But I mean, the only thing really that helps is this

00:16:36: Speaker: consciousness, I guess.

00:16:37: Speaker: And I would probably talk about it and ask questions a A lot.

00:16:42: Speaker: Or also just like as anecdotes also say how we would do this in

00:16:48: Speaker: Germany or ask so would you like to see how we do this?

00:16:51: Speaker: It's like, you know, the thing I

00:16:53: Speaker: I'm not a I wouldn't give a

00:16:55: Speaker: culture specific training about

00:16:57: Speaker: Russia, probably because it's

00:16:59: Speaker: not one of my specialties, but

00:17:01: Speaker: from what I know and what I've

00:17:02: Speaker: heard, because as intercultural

00:17:04: Speaker: trainings, we get quite a good

00:17:06: Speaker: training ourselves about

00:17:07: Speaker: different cultures is that they

00:17:09: Speaker: are actually.

00:17:10: Speaker: And that might sound like a contradiction.

00:17:13: Speaker: Like a contradiction.

00:17:14: Speaker: They are more relationship oriented than task oriented,

00:17:19: Speaker: which is what we Germans are.

00:17:21: Speaker: Right?

00:17:21: Speaker: So they are in their heart and

00:17:24: Speaker: under the shell actually really

00:17:26: Speaker: warm people.

00:17:27: Speaker: Yeah.

00:17:28: Speaker: There is this intercultural

00:17:29: Speaker: concept of of peaches and

00:17:31: Speaker: coconuts.

00:17:32: Speaker: Tell me more.

00:17:33: Speaker: That sounds that sounds fascinating.

00:17:34: Speaker: That one.

00:17:35: Speaker: Peaches and coconuts.

00:17:36: Speaker: Yeah.

00:17:37: Speaker: So how would you describe a peach and a coconut.

00:17:41: Speaker: I'm assuming it has to do something with the shell, right?

00:17:43: Speaker: So, uh, a coconut, uh, has a tough shell.

00:17:48: Speaker: Uh, a peach, really delicate.

00:17:50: Speaker: Uh, but it has.

00:17:51: Speaker: There's a pit in it that is maybe hard.

00:17:54: Speaker: Is that getting closer?

00:17:56: Speaker: Yeah.

00:17:57: Speaker: So the coconut has a hard shell,

00:18:00: Speaker: but then it's very soft inside,

00:18:02: Speaker: and it's quite easy to get to

00:18:03: Speaker: the inside.

00:18:04: Speaker: And the peach has soft skin, so it feels like it's really easy

00:18:11: Speaker: to approach, but then it has a really hard inner side, which is

00:18:15: Speaker: really hard to approach.

00:18:16: Speaker: So I guess when you look in relative terms, which I talked

00:18:20: Speaker: about at the beginning, this is a really cool example actually.

00:18:23: Speaker: Um, I guess the Americans would

00:18:24: Speaker: be on the very peachy side,

00:18:26: Speaker: right?

00:18:26: Speaker: Yeah.

00:18:27: Speaker: Um, so now the the Germans would be on the coconut side, but then

00:18:31: Speaker: when you compare them with Russians, maybe the Germans

00:18:34: Speaker: would be more on the peachy side and the Russians would be more

00:18:38: Speaker: on the coconut side.

00:18:39: Speaker: Perfect.

00:18:40: Speaker: Exactly.

00:18:40: Speaker: Yeah.

00:18:41: Speaker: Mhm.

00:18:41: Speaker: And I think maybe I would dig out these kind of things and try

00:18:45: Speaker: to find out actually about more of that culture.

00:18:47: Speaker: And I mean who doesn't like

00:18:50: Speaker: people who are interested in

00:18:52: Speaker: their culture.

00:18:53: Speaker: Mhm.

00:18:54: Speaker: And as long as people understand

00:18:56: Speaker: that you are interested in their

00:18:57: Speaker: culture and how you work and how

00:18:59: Speaker: you are.

00:19:00: Speaker: I think this is a door opener

00:19:01: Speaker: and then you can feel more

00:19:03: Speaker: comfortable with them

00:19:05: Speaker: individually, even though maybe

00:19:06: Speaker: the overall culture is still a

00:19:09: Speaker: bit suspect and maybe even after

00:19:10: Speaker: a while.

00:19:11: Speaker: I know really a lot of people who love the Russian culture.

00:19:15: Speaker: Mhm.

00:19:15: Speaker: So what you're saying is that I

00:19:18: Speaker: can make this easier for me and

00:19:20: Speaker: other people by being curious

00:19:22: Speaker: and asking questions about

00:19:24: Speaker: cultural differences.

00:19:25: Speaker: Uh, and so I'm wondering because you were saying it helps to be

00:19:29: Speaker: conscious of my own culture.

00:19:31: Speaker: Totally.

00:19:31: Speaker: Yeah.

00:19:32: Speaker: Um, and that is a very, very

00:19:34: Speaker: important point, maybe,

00:19:36: Speaker: Johannes, that we need to hold

00:19:39: Speaker: on for a moment, because a good

00:19:42: Speaker: intercultural training isn't one

00:19:44: Speaker: that teaches you about that

00:19:45: Speaker: other culture, about do's and

00:19:47: Speaker: don'ts.

00:19:47: Speaker: It's a it's a training where you actually also understand that

00:19:53: Speaker: your own backpack.

00:19:55: Speaker: I talked about at the beginning, like, where are you coming from?

00:19:58: Speaker: What is your cultural lens

00:20:00: Speaker: through which you look at the

00:20:01: Speaker: world?

00:20:02: Speaker: And only then can you actually understand other cultures?

00:20:06: Speaker: What water am I swimming in?

00:20:08: Speaker: Yes.

00:20:09: Speaker: What does it taste like?

00:20:10: Speaker: What does it look like exactly?

00:20:12: Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

00:20:14: Speaker: And this is more important than understanding do's and don'ts,

00:20:17: Speaker: because if you understand those and learn them by heart, you can

00:20:20: Speaker: still get into massive cultural conflicts because you're not

00:20:24: Speaker: aware of what you're doing or what you maybe assume everyone

00:20:29: Speaker: values because you will still looking at the other and you

00:20:33: Speaker: won't reflect about yourself like intercultural competency is

00:20:38: Speaker: about self-reflection and understanding your own emotions

00:20:43: Speaker: and what's coming up in a certain situation, and being

00:20:46: Speaker: able to step back and assessing them in intercultural terms.

00:20:50: Speaker: It's almost.

00:20:51: Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:51: Speaker: It's almost like self-awareness and reflection are good skills

00:20:54: Speaker: to have in general, like good activities to engage in.

00:20:57: Speaker: So I have one more specific

00:20:59: Speaker: question, and I would be really

00:21:01: Speaker: interested to hear your opinion

00:21:02: Speaker: on this, because you're also

00:21:04: Speaker: active in the agile lean Kanban

00:21:07: Speaker: space.

00:21:08: Speaker: Are there any kind of

00:21:09: Speaker: organizational cultures where it

00:21:12: Speaker: is more tricky to start working

00:21:15: Speaker: that way, or where we have more

00:21:16: Speaker: tensions or the other way

00:21:19: Speaker: around?

00:21:19: Speaker: Maybe.

00:21:20: Speaker: Any specific organizational cultures that lend themselves

00:21:24: Speaker: really well to to this specific type of working?

00:21:27: Speaker: What type of agile do you mean?

00:21:30: Speaker: Nice.

00:21:31: Speaker: Uh, you caught me.

00:21:32: Speaker: I don't know.

00:21:34: Speaker: Uh, I think the self-awareness thing starts right here.

00:21:39: Speaker: What am I talking about?

00:21:41: Speaker: All right, so when when I, when

00:21:43: Speaker: I think of of Kanban, one of the

00:21:44: Speaker: first things is that at least I

00:21:46: Speaker: learned, is that you kind of

00:21:48: Speaker: want to create transparency

00:21:49: Speaker: first, or you want to have some

00:21:51: Speaker: kind of overview of, of what is

00:21:53: Speaker: happening here.

00:21:53: Speaker: And then I noticed that in some companies this is already where

00:21:56: Speaker: it gets difficult.

00:21:58: Speaker: Okay.

00:21:58: Speaker: So like you have an unprecedented amount of insight

00:22:01: Speaker: into the actual work and the flow of work.

00:22:04: Speaker: Uh, and now it would be possible for people to talk openly about

00:22:07: Speaker: this, but maybe there's some kind of resistance or people are

00:22:11: Speaker: kind of shocked, or they kind of want to go back to the old way.

00:22:14: Speaker: Is that something that you're

00:22:15: Speaker: also noticing, or what's your

00:22:16: Speaker: experience here?

00:22:17: Speaker: How would you deal with this?

00:22:18: Speaker: I actually have a lot of thoughts about this topic.

00:22:20: Speaker: Um, but maybe let's make it a

00:22:22: Speaker: bit broader, not just talk about

00:22:23: Speaker: Agile and Kanban and not just

00:22:26: Speaker: ways of working, because they

00:22:27: Speaker: are also like associated to

00:22:29: Speaker: agile, but ways of working also

00:22:31: Speaker: in terms of project management,

00:22:32: Speaker: for example.

00:22:33: Speaker: Um, yeah.

00:22:35: Speaker: And so there are a lot of things

00:22:37: Speaker: that go on in my mind all the

00:22:40: Speaker: time.

00:22:40: Speaker: And I'm like, I think that we should discuss more.

00:22:44: Speaker: I don't have a solution for them, but I think there are

00:22:47: Speaker: tricky things to consider when we are introducing this.

00:22:53: Speaker: These things, you know, like for

00:22:55: Speaker: example, perception of time,

00:22:57: Speaker: right?

00:22:58: Speaker: Yeah, there are cultures which have a linear perception of

00:23:02: Speaker: time, as we already said.

00:23:04: Speaker: Um, we had this in the Australian, um, example with the

00:23:07: Speaker: Northern Europeans, very linear.

00:23:10: Speaker: One thing happens after the other, and then we have cultures

00:23:14: Speaker: where actually we can do more things in parallel.

00:23:18: Speaker: Um, these are usually the

00:23:19: Speaker: cultures of South Europe, South

00:23:21: Speaker: America.

00:23:22: Speaker: Like I always have this Italian

00:23:24: Speaker: picture of an Italian in my

00:23:25: Speaker: mind, you know, that is driving

00:23:27: Speaker: a car.

00:23:28: Speaker: I've got actually my concrete Renata, my friend.

00:23:31: Speaker: Um, in Tuscany.

00:23:33: Speaker: She can drive a car by being on the cell phone all the time, and

00:23:36: Speaker: it feels like she can do all other things at the same time as

00:23:39: Speaker: well, while also taking.

00:23:43: Speaker: The attention to myself, who's

00:23:44: Speaker: on the on the passenger seat,

00:23:46: Speaker: you know.

00:23:47: Speaker: And this is, um, they even have a value for that.

00:23:51: Speaker: So the art to make this all happen at the same time, um,

00:23:54: Speaker: it's not the right explanation.

00:23:56: Speaker: It's not the right translation, but something like that.

00:23:58: Speaker: And the art to make or something

00:24:01: Speaker: like that is, I think is the

00:24:02: Speaker: translation.

00:24:03: Speaker: So it's not even only a value.

00:24:06: Speaker: It is an art in Italy.

00:24:08: Speaker: Sorry, I just, um, there was a time I have an Italian friend.

00:24:12: Speaker: The first time I went to visit him.

00:24:14: Speaker: That was also the first time that I drove a car in Italy, and

00:24:17: Speaker: he was on the passenger seat, and then there was a car that

00:24:19: Speaker: was really slow in front of us.

00:24:21: Speaker: And then my friend said, uh, just pass the car.

00:24:23: Speaker: He's probably on his cell phone and drinking espresso.

00:24:26: Speaker: And I thought he was he was he was joking.

00:24:28: Speaker: And then I passed the car and looked inside and he was on his

00:24:31: Speaker: cell phone drinking espresso while driving his car.

00:24:33: Speaker: So it's exactly what you're talking about.

00:24:35: Speaker: So I saw this.

00:24:36: Speaker: Yeah, exactly.

00:24:37: Speaker: I can confirm it is true.

00:24:39: Speaker: And now I'm learning.

00:24:40: Speaker: Okay, this is an art form.

00:24:42: Speaker: Okay.

00:24:42: Speaker: This is being celebrated.

00:24:43: Speaker: It's not just about you can do this, but it's.

00:24:46: Speaker: Maybe it's one of the cultural values.

00:24:47: Speaker: We're just like, hey, good for you.

00:24:49: Speaker: You're doing well.

00:24:49: Speaker: Look at you handling all those things at the same time.

00:24:52: Speaker: Exactly.

00:24:53: Speaker: And so this is this is a

00:24:54: Speaker: parallel perception of time,

00:24:56: Speaker: right.

00:24:57: Speaker: And this Italian, the stereotype

00:24:59: Speaker: Italian in my mind is just that

00:25:01: Speaker: example.

00:25:02: Speaker: And then there are cultures like

00:25:04: Speaker: in Asia, also indigenous

00:25:06: Speaker: cultures that have more of a

00:25:08: Speaker: cyclical time where like when

00:25:09: Speaker: they approach a project or so,

00:25:12: Speaker: they're like, oh yeah, oh yeah,

00:25:15: Speaker: let's, let's sleep over this a

00:25:18: Speaker: few nights.

00:25:18: Speaker: And then after that, oh, maybe actually this first task that

00:25:22: Speaker: looked so important, it's actually not that much.

00:25:24: Speaker: So we'll do this first and then

00:25:26: Speaker: and this will decide about this

00:25:28: Speaker: later.

00:25:29: Speaker: And yeah.

00:25:30: Speaker: So and it's it's like it's cyclical.

00:25:32: Speaker: It can all come back like reincarnation, you know.

00:25:35: Speaker: And so you are trying to tackle a project with these guys.

00:25:39: Speaker: What was your original question?

00:25:40: Speaker: I think the original question was I'm trying to kind of

00:25:44: Speaker: understand if there are organizational cultures that

00:25:47: Speaker: lend themselves more to kind of this agile way of working.

00:25:52: Speaker: Yeah.

00:25:52: Speaker: And I'm just maybe what I'm

00:25:54: Speaker: trying to say is, for example,

00:25:55: Speaker: in scrum we have sprints, or

00:25:57: Speaker: even in Kanban we might use a

00:25:59: Speaker: cadence.

00:26:00: Speaker: Um, and I'm wondering if this maybe would this like from a,

00:26:03: Speaker: like a dumb outsider's perspective, would this align

00:26:07: Speaker: more with the cyclical culture that you're talking about?

00:26:10: Speaker: Um, yeah.

00:26:11: Speaker: So I think, um, like this project management.

00:26:15: Speaker: The classical project management probably comes from a Western

00:26:19: Speaker: culture originally, right?

00:26:21: Speaker: It might blend in well in hierarchical cultures, even

00:26:24: Speaker: though they might be cyclical.

00:26:26: Speaker: So I'm just throwing lots of thoughts from my intercultural.

00:26:31: Speaker: I've got like there is great

00:26:33: Speaker: when there is one situation

00:26:34: Speaker: there.

00:26:35: Speaker: It's not linear.

00:26:36: Speaker: When there is a situation, there are lots of boxes popping up in

00:26:39: Speaker: my brain at the same time.

00:26:41: Speaker: But then, you know, when you're

00:26:43: Speaker: starting with scrum, it's still

00:26:46: Speaker: very rigid.

00:26:47: Speaker: The cyclical people won't like this either.

00:26:50: Speaker: And and when I look at, you know, that in in scrum or like

00:26:54: Speaker: not scrum, let's say iterative approaches, it happens so often

00:27:00: Speaker: that we won't get the things done at the end of the sprint

00:27:06: Speaker: and we roll them over.

00:27:08: Speaker: Never heard about this.

00:27:09: Speaker: Never.

00:27:12: Speaker: Yeah, exactly.

00:27:14: Speaker: So the Kanban explanation would be resource versus flow

00:27:18: Speaker: efficiency, because we cannot know what happens on the way

00:27:23: Speaker: because we are resource efficient, you know, and there

00:27:26: Speaker: are wait times and we cannot plan for the wait times.

00:27:30: Speaker: And now we add this additional layer of perception of time with

00:27:34: Speaker: people where everybody has a different perception of time.

00:27:38: Speaker: So what does two weeks even mean?

00:27:41: Speaker: Yeah, it's for lots of Maori I

00:27:44: Speaker: talked to here in, um, like our

00:27:46: Speaker: indigenous people in New

00:27:48: Speaker: Zealand.

00:27:49: Speaker: It was just too rigid for their ways of working.

00:27:53: Speaker: Then scrum and the likes and see

00:27:56: Speaker: they come from the US Western

00:28:00: Speaker: culture with a linear perception

00:28:02: Speaker: of time.

00:28:03: Speaker: And they are also very individualistic cultures where

00:28:07: Speaker: it's about the I. And one of the aims we have with the values

00:28:11: Speaker: that we have in scrum is we need to be more team oriented, we

00:28:16: Speaker: need to have more cooperation, we need to work more together.

00:28:19: Speaker: So I'm asking the question there.

00:28:21: Speaker: Two thirds of the world

00:28:22: Speaker: population are collectivist

00:28:24: Speaker: cultures.

00:28:25: Speaker: It's all about the we one third

00:28:27: Speaker: of the world population only are

00:28:29: Speaker: individualistic cultures.

00:28:31: Speaker: The collectivistic cultures don't need us Westerners to tell

00:28:35: Speaker: them how to form a team.

00:28:38: Speaker: Yeah.

00:28:39: Speaker: Caught with your pants down, I would say.

00:28:41: Speaker: Yeah.

00:28:42: Speaker: Yeah.

00:28:42: Speaker: And with transparency, you're right.

00:28:44: Speaker: This is also a thing that might be tricky.

00:28:47: Speaker: You know, some cultures might

00:28:48: Speaker: not like that too much because

00:28:50: Speaker: it might feel like they're

00:28:51: Speaker: exposing themselves to their

00:28:52: Speaker: bosses.

00:28:54: Speaker: Yeah.

00:28:54: Speaker: Especially in hierarchical cultures.

00:28:56: Speaker: So there are a lot of aspects,

00:28:58: Speaker: um, that are going on in my

00:29:00: Speaker: intercultural brain when I look

00:29:02: Speaker: at all these ways of working,

00:29:03: Speaker: you know.

00:29:03: Speaker: And we are not only talking agile like all of them.

00:29:07: Speaker: And so now, Kanban trainer, why am I still passionate about it?

00:29:12: Speaker: What works really well for all

00:29:14: Speaker: cultures is last responsible

00:29:17: Speaker: moment.

00:29:17: Speaker: It still works and you can still

00:29:20: Speaker: plan with Kanban and you can

00:29:22: Speaker: still be very flexible and you

00:29:24: Speaker: can totally adjust it to the

00:29:25: Speaker: context.

00:29:26: Speaker: And this is what I love.

00:29:27: Speaker: And that is kind of my passion

00:29:30: Speaker: nowadays, because that's why I

00:29:31: Speaker: do both of those, because

00:29:33: Speaker: intercultural is all about

00:29:35: Speaker: context.

00:29:36: Speaker: You cannot just one situation in

00:29:40: Speaker: linear terms and and get a

00:29:42: Speaker: solution out.

00:29:44: Speaker: And you can't in Kanban either because it's so contextual.

00:29:47: Speaker: And that's why the two actually

00:29:48: Speaker: work together so well even with

00:29:50: Speaker: transparency.

00:29:51: Speaker: Yes, Kanban is very transparent

00:29:53: Speaker: as well, but it's an

00:29:55: Speaker: evolutionary change management

00:29:57: Speaker: method, and you can do that very

00:29:59: Speaker: subtly so without exposing the

00:30:02: Speaker: people.

00:30:02: Speaker: So you don't have to come with a

00:30:04: Speaker: crowbar and break things open

00:30:06: Speaker: and push it through against

00:30:08: Speaker: resistance.

00:30:09: Speaker: Yeah.

00:30:09: Speaker: It's not this.

00:30:10: Speaker: So we are working in this way now.

00:30:12: Speaker: And you guys have to be

00:30:13: Speaker: transparent now kind of out of

00:30:16: Speaker: time.

00:30:16: Speaker: So, uh, I feel like we should

00:30:18: Speaker: always stop when it's the

00:30:20: Speaker: greatest.

00:30:21: Speaker: So I think we've reached that point, I feel.

00:30:23: Speaker: Do you know what a rock poll is?

00:30:25: Speaker: When?

00:30:26: Speaker: When you feel like the rug has

00:30:28: Speaker: been pulled out under underneath

00:30:29: Speaker: you.

00:30:30: Speaker: So I just had this moment when

00:30:31: Speaker: we were talking about, you know,

00:30:33: Speaker: the collectivist culture and

00:30:35: Speaker: individualistic.

00:30:36: Speaker: And I'm just like, yeah, of course.

00:30:38: Speaker: Um, that makes so much sense.

00:30:40: Speaker: And then it's interesting how we're trying to like, from these

00:30:44: Speaker: individualistic cultures, we're trying to export this to the

00:30:46: Speaker: rest of the world just to be like, hey, this is something you

00:30:49: Speaker: should know, or this is something you should improve and

00:30:52: Speaker: know that we got this.

00:30:53: Speaker: Okay.

00:30:54: Speaker: Um, just one more question.

00:30:56: Speaker: Um, you said that one of the best things I could do is to

00:30:59: Speaker: create this self awareness.

00:31:01: Speaker: Other than maybe I'm imagining,

00:31:04: Speaker: uh, visiting intercultural

00:31:06: Speaker: trainings or maybe reading books

00:31:07: Speaker: about this.

00:31:08: Speaker: Is there something else that I

00:31:09: Speaker: could do to enhance this skill

00:31:12: Speaker: of my awareness of my own

00:31:14: Speaker: culture?

00:31:15: Speaker: It's it's a good question.

00:31:16: Speaker: Um, it is really a hard one, you know, but it's like behavior is

00:31:20: Speaker: the hardest to change, and behavior comes from this

00:31:24: Speaker: consciousness and just thinking about some easy ways.

00:31:30: Speaker: Maybe you make a note on your laptop, or maybe you put

00:31:33: Speaker: yourself a task every day.

00:31:37: Speaker: I want to think once about my reactions, about my thinking,

00:31:42: Speaker: um, or have a body that reflects it to you.

00:31:46: Speaker: It really is one of those tricky things.

00:31:49: Speaker: Um, and I see a lot of people, a

00:31:52: Speaker: lot of their times are sitting

00:31:54: Speaker: in their brains and reacting

00:31:57: Speaker: without reflecting.

00:31:59: Speaker: Yeah.

00:31:59: Speaker: And I mean, it happens a lot.

00:32:01: Speaker: And we have like we have so many topics around this.

00:32:05: Speaker: We have, you know, topics about biases, leadership,

00:32:09: Speaker: psychological safety, whatever.

00:32:12: Speaker: But maybe intercultural terms, if you get into this more, is

00:32:18: Speaker: actually a more tangible topic where you can train this now

00:32:22: Speaker: kind of bridging a little bit from the start that it's

00:32:25: Speaker: perceived often as very fluffy, intangible, with no outcomes.

00:32:30: Speaker: I think we've tackled some

00:32:31: Speaker: outcomes that can really go

00:32:33: Speaker: wrong.

00:32:34: Speaker: Um, like not hitting a contract, not getting your application

00:32:39: Speaker: through and things like that, not hitting a project.

00:32:43: Speaker: But now even it might even be a

00:32:45: Speaker: tool for you to train this like

00:32:48: Speaker: something concrete.

00:32:49: Speaker: Because biases, it's really hard to track.

00:32:52: Speaker: It's even harder to train.

00:32:54: Speaker: I find or be conscious about.

00:32:56: Speaker: Awesome.

00:32:57: Speaker: I'm going to do the outro.

00:32:59: Speaker: Could you, before we do that,

00:33:00: Speaker: could you tell us about your

00:33:02: Speaker: books?

00:33:03: Speaker: It's very lucky.

00:33:04: Speaker: The newest one I've got here, not the other two.

00:33:08: Speaker: Um, so the newest one is New

00:33:11: Speaker: Zealand, so the English

00:33:13: Speaker: translation would be something

00:33:14: Speaker: like faux pas Guide to New

00:33:16: Speaker: Zealand.

00:33:17: Speaker: And I've learned that it's really misguiding when English

00:33:20: Speaker: people see the see the title.

00:33:24: Speaker: The the first thing they see is Führer.

00:33:26: Speaker: Oh, no. And then the association is.

00:33:34: Speaker: Is that something like leader?

00:33:37: Speaker: It's like I can also mean guide.

00:33:39: Speaker: Um, okay.

00:33:43: Speaker: Yeah, it's quite interesting.

00:33:44: Speaker: Um, so this is intercultural, right?

00:33:47: Speaker: Like this association, something

00:33:48: Speaker: it evokes in you and it's it's,

00:33:51: Speaker: um, like, all of my books are

00:33:53: Speaker: very, um, written in, like, in a

00:33:56: Speaker: storytelling way.

00:33:57: Speaker: I love this because I like to reach people.

00:34:00: Speaker: It doesn't help people if I'm writing books in an academic

00:34:03: Speaker: way, and I can't reach them because I find it's a really

00:34:06: Speaker: very important topic.

00:34:08: Speaker: And if more people understood this topic, it would actually

00:34:11: Speaker: make a better world.

00:34:12: Speaker: And that is my vision.

00:34:15: Speaker: So, uh, this is the newest book and, um, I've heard it's very

00:34:19: Speaker: readable and it has a lot of depth and even insights about

00:34:24: Speaker: New Zealand that aren't out there in German culture yet.

00:34:30: Speaker: I've had.

00:34:31: Speaker: I'm very honored that I had my

00:34:34: Speaker: Maori business partner on my

00:34:37: Speaker: side, who I could ask a lot of

00:34:39: Speaker: questions, and I had three

00:34:42: Speaker: questions for an hour and I

00:34:43: Speaker: thought, we'll do in ten

00:34:45: Speaker: minutes.

00:34:45: Speaker: And then we do.

00:34:47: Speaker: We talk about everything else.

00:34:49: Speaker: We hit the hour, and he just

00:34:51: Speaker: kept talking, and there was so

00:34:52: Speaker: much coming out of it, uh, out

00:34:54: Speaker: of him.

00:34:55: Speaker: So there's a lot of Maori Maori perspective really in there that

00:35:00: Speaker: you will probably not read anywhere else because it's a lot

00:35:04: Speaker: of the very white perspective.

00:35:06: Speaker: Um, and I tried to get both of them.

00:35:10: Speaker: Wow.

00:35:10: Speaker: Yeah.

00:35:11: Speaker: Then the first book I read is my before this book was my main

00:35:16: Speaker: book, Wahlheimat Neuseeland or New Zealand, my adopted home and

00:35:22: Speaker: got translated into English.

00:35:24: Speaker: New Zealand, my adopted home.

00:35:25: Speaker: And I keep thinking that the new

00:35:28: Speaker: book is better, but then I'm

00:35:30: Speaker: reflecting and I'm like, no,

00:35:32: Speaker: actually they are very

00:35:33: Speaker: different.

00:35:34: Speaker: So the the New Zealand adopted home has more intercultural

00:35:38: Speaker: stuff in it and the new book has more typical New Zealand things

00:35:42: Speaker: in terms of landscape, few hidden, lots of hidden tips

00:35:47: Speaker: around where you could travel, travel if you want to go a

00:35:51: Speaker: little bit off the beaten track.

00:35:52: Speaker: So what's not in the typical

00:35:54: Speaker: travel guides, but subtly

00:35:57: Speaker: hidden?

00:35:57: Speaker: And then the second book in New Zealand is like a booklet.

00:36:01: Speaker: It's very thin.

00:36:03: Speaker: I would recommend Don't Buy It because I'm actually thinking

00:36:07: Speaker: about rewriting it.

00:36:09: Speaker: Yeah.

00:36:10: Speaker: Just wait for the new edition.

00:36:12: Speaker: Yeah.

00:36:12: Speaker: Awesome.

00:36:13: Speaker: Thank you.

00:36:13: Speaker: So people should definitely check this out.

00:36:15: Speaker: Um, we are going to link to your

00:36:18: Speaker: new book in the description of

00:36:20: Speaker: the podcast.

00:36:21: Speaker: It's a really good Christmas present, and I actually like

00:36:25: Speaker: there are a few reviews on Amazon that show that it's

00:36:29: Speaker: people that had no idea about New Zealand, they had no idea

00:36:32: Speaker: what intercultural stuff.

00:36:33: Speaker: And they were like, oh, this is actually I really like this.

00:36:38: Speaker: This is a lot more than I expected.

00:36:39: Speaker: And that, of course, as an author, that makes you happy.

00:36:42: Speaker: Thank you so much for your time.

00:36:44: Speaker: Um, I'm going to close with telling you a bit about the

00:36:47: Speaker: sponsor, which is Holisticon, and then I'll give you an

00:36:50: Speaker: outlook about the next session.

00:36:51: Speaker: So at Holisticon we put into

00:36:53: Speaker: practice what we discuss in

00:36:54: Speaker: transform together.

00:36:56: Speaker: We provide companies with

00:36:57: Speaker: holistic support throughout the

00:36:58: Speaker: digital transformation process,

00:37:00: Speaker: from strategy and technology to

00:37:02: Speaker: organisational change.

00:37:03: Speaker: We make our customers more

00:37:05: Speaker: resilient, establish a future

00:37:06: Speaker: proof agile culture, create new

00:37:08: Speaker: business models and inspire

00:37:09: Speaker: people with better services and

00:37:11: Speaker: products.

00:37:12: Speaker: If you are facing similar challenges or are wondering how

00:37:14: Speaker: we can implement the ideas from this session in your

00:37:16: Speaker: organization, please feel free to contact us.

00:37:19: Speaker: You can find all the information you need at holisticon.de and

00:37:23: Speaker: don't miss our next transform together session on December

00:37:26: Speaker: eighteenth at four p.m. CET.

00:37:28: Speaker: So that's already next week.

00:37:30: Speaker: Um, because I will be talking to Valerio Zanini and I was trying

00:37:34: Speaker: to squeeze him in before the year is over.

00:37:37: Speaker: He just published a fantastic

00:37:38: Speaker: new book on AI for product

00:37:40: Speaker: managers.

00:37:41: Speaker: Uh, and I'll talk to him about this.

00:37:43: Speaker: See you then.